Evolution 2010 Season Wrap Up
For a period of time, I would write up a summary of Evolution each and every year right after Evolution finished. However, I skipped writing anything after last year's Evolution (2009). This year, after the epicness that was Evolution 2010, I really wanted to write an article. I had a lot to say about the Fighting Game Community, but it took me some time to formulate my thoughts into words. So though I'm about two-and-a-half months late, I think it's finally time for me to write my first blog post in over two years. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you:
The Evolution 2010 Season Wrap-up
Part 1 - The Fighting Game Boom
Except this year, I'm doing things differently. Normally, what I did in the past wrap ups, as mentioned earlier, was discuss each community individually and talk about the strengths and weaknesses of each individual community from what I observed. This year, however, I think it would be a mistake to do such a thing. And the reason for this is because, this year above all other years, we need to focus not on the individual communities, but the Fighting Game Community as a whole. And that's because this year, the Fighting Game Community may have taken its first steps into becoming something much bigger.

Whenever I talk about the Fighting Game Community to friends and where it needs to go and how it needs to grow, the topic of poker always comes up. Of any mainstream gaming communities that exist today, the Poker Community is the one that I feel as though the Fighting Game Community needs to follow and emulate as much as possible. There are many facets that can provide similarities between the communities, but the reason I bring this up today is because I feel as though the way Chris Moneymaker's win in 2003 initiated the Poker Boom, Evolution 2010 may have been the closest thing we've yet seen to achieving a similar boom. And it's all a direct result of Street Fighter IV's immense popularity.

Now, I dunno about most of you people, but before the Poker Boom, poker was one thing to me: people sitting in a smoke-filled room asking for more cards and trying to bluff each other. Whenever you saw poker on TV shows or in movies, it was always the same format: each player is dealt 5 card hands and they are allowed a maximum of 3 cards for redraw. Texas Hold-Em was a version of the game I had never heard of even though it had been the Main Event at the World Series of Poker since forever.

Since Moneymaker's win in 2003, Texas Hold-Em has exploded. Everyone plays that version in home games, and when you hear "poker," Texas Hold-Em is now the first game you think of. Even your average joe pictures Texas Hold-Em as what poker is now. But here's the question: are there other versions of poker? Are there even more skilled versions of poker out there, that rely less on luck and require more knowlege and skill?
The answer to both of those questions is "Yes." There are tons of poker versions out there, and many of them do require stronger knowledge and take away some of the luck. There's Omaha High-Low, Stud Eight or Better, Razz, and on and on. Heck, there's even huge differences between tournament play and cash game play. Some formats are more skilled, some are less skilled, but none are as popular as tournament Texas Hold-Em. But here's the question: do you think fans of these other versions are frustrated that Texas Hold-Em is the most popularly played poker format out there?
Maybe. But most of them more than likely have accepted Texas Hold-Em as the main format in the poker world. In the mid 2000's, when ESPN showed the World Series of Poker, they used to televise many different games. They showed the Omaha games, the Stud Eight or Better games, and so on and so forth. But recently, in the past couple of years, ESPN has moved away from showing these games. They only show Texas Hold-Em events now. Why? Because the other formats simply didn't get as many viewers.

What I'm telling you is this: use the exposure of Fighting Games to the general public through Street Fighter IV to help your own community grow. Look at the influx of potential players and, instead of looking down upon the casual Street Fighter IV fan, nuture them and introduce them, slowly, to your game of choice.
Everyone nowadays goes into poker learning Texas Hold-Em. But it's almost a guarantee that, through the natural course of exposure to Texas Hold-Em, players who become serious about the game eventually move on to learn the other formats. They start learning how to play the other games due to general curiosity and the need for variety.

So the same thing starts to happen with Street Fighter IV that happens with poker: people who spectate start to get interested in playing because the game is so fun to watch. And they step into it and learn the subtleties little by little and their appreciation of the game grows. You start to understand why poker cannot be played without chips and why Street Fighter cannot be played without Throws. And then they start to understand the idea of why slow playing the set of kings is so effective and why baiting Wake-Ups becomes a fundamental tactic. And then they slowly but surely become good at a game that is actually friendly enough to allow them to get to a point where they are truly competitive. Yes, they are still going to lose to Patrick Antonius and Phil Ivey and Chris Ferguson and Johnny Chan 99 out of 100 times at the poker table, but they can at least play. And yes, they are still going to lose to Alex Valle and John Choi and Arturo Sanchez and Justin Wong 99 out of 100 times, but at least they can play!
And then what happens? They go to events like the World Series of Poker or Evolution and they start watching. They start seeing other games like Omaha or Marvel Vs. Capcom 2 or Seven Card Stud or Tekken and they become intrigued. And it's really up to those other communities, now, to bring those players in and introduce them to a different game. And who knows? Some of those people coming in as Texas Hold-Em fans may become one of the best Omaha players ever. A few of those Street Fighter IV kids may become pro BlazBlue players. You never know.

Tekken players need to write up articles such as, "If you like using a Rush Down character like Cammy in Super Street Fighter IV, well then you should look at these characters to play in Tekken because they have similar sensibilities." BlazBlue experts need to write how strategies you've learned in Street Fighter IV apply to BlazBlue, such as Option Selects and BnB's and safe Block Strings and such. Heck, why stop at Street Fighter? They should even write articles that say "If you appreciate the Okizeme games of Tekken, here's how BlazBlue implements their Oki game in similar fashion."
The Fighting Game Community can only benefit from the influx of players that Street Fighter IV has brought in, and it's time for people to start realizing this and taking advantage of it. Only by doing so will the Fighting Game Community not only continue to grow, but to thrive and become truly a mainstream form of competitive entertainment.
Next up: Evolution 2010 Season Wrap Up Part 2 - Are Fighting Games the Best eSport?
39 Comments:
Excellent analogies between the two!
By
Apathetik, at 4:44 AM
I've also noticed the poker-Street Fighter parallel, and this is the first article I've read that makes such a thorough analysis. Nicely done.
By
Protocol Snow, at 6:05 AM
Other fighting game communities have little to gain from SF4. Communities of things that have large time investments typically convince themselves that nothing else is as good. Like MMO fanboys who will immediately assume any other MMO is shit compared to what they play, the vast majority of SF4 players convince themselves and each other that other fighters are awful jokes. Tekken is just juggling, Blazblue is a gay anime game, lol kof, etc. Players of Guilty Gear, Tekken, etc do the same thing, though not to the same extent since enough of them have played other fighters so they cut down on bullshit others bring up.
Simply, most SF4 players neither listen nor care about other fighters. 98% of the sales for SF are not people who stay with fighters for more than a month. The sales of SF aren't really much of a boon for the community. Sure, it has produced a small amount of players for other games, but not sizable enough to be worth the huge amount of unwarranted, nostalgia based attention the game got. Or the fact that the game didn't need to be bad, and would have sold with nostalgia regardless of whether it had 10-frame defensive input buffer or not.
I'd like to think you're right, but nothing indicates that. We've already heard this viewpoint for the last 2 years, and it hasn't meant shit.
By
Fersh, at 8:13 AM
Repoost of comment I posted on repost of article on SRK:
Nice try, but tried to hard to justify a point you want to make with an analogy that ultimately fails.
Yeah Moneymaker AND Rounders (Movie) blew up poker for a few years, but its mainstream popularity started waning several years ago forcing the business model to go gimmicky with delayed final tables, rush poker, etc. In the end watching enough no name players play cards is boring as hell and lost the magic when the final tables were populated by "poker celebrities" along with the fact that the penultimate moral of Rounders proved to be false, there is skill in poker, but there is still more luck involved, thats why none of these GREAT poker celebrities has won the main event. In the end, trying to model after pokers success will result in epic fail.
Furthermore, SF4's epic rebound was only because it was MIA for so long, Street Fighter may always hold the crowds ear as most any FG fan worth his salt can point to SF2 as the god father of the FG landscape, but in the great words of Jim in Fall River, "That doesnt mean he's any more focused than any of the other 8 a-holes wearing pinstripes." This will certainly be seen in the next two years as the industry shoots itself in the foot ala UFC 2009/2010 when a successful release spurred follow ups that flubbed because the user base just wasnt there to support the sell through of the original. While Tekken has seen a regular release schedule we saw what 3 versions of T5 and two of T6(?), in their excitement over the success of SF4 we now have MVC3, TTT2, SSF4AC, SXT, TXS (not to mention a myriad of other lesser franchizeses) all in the next couple years vying to capitalize on the SF4 sell through all of which will sell but saturate the market and ultimately lead to scene fail(not total fail just not this optimistic growth your purporting by rallying around the popular kid).
In the end slow steady growth is always best in the long run, there are to many gaming options in the west not to mention non gaming options, While our community is strong and tight knitted, our numbers are still SOOOO small compared to the markets we would be competing against. In order to get "Espn coverage" Evo will need turnouts in the 50-100k range (competitors + spectators) with an equivalent increase in at home following. The numbers have to be large enough to attract tv advertisers which is very expensive) is short, not gunna happen during our lifetime.
Playing cards/Poker has been around for several hundred years if not longer, the world serries for over 30 years. While espn still covers it, it is already a shadow of the 2003-2005 success. And the barriers to entry for a poker game make Street Fighter look like an MIT PhD.
IMO the best way to promote scene growth is promoting celebrity players through sponsorship and travel. Having a sponsor pay for Justin Wong to go on a 20 city fighting game tourney tour were people get to meet, play and engage these Top Player/.Celebrities of our scene is the best way to increase exposure rededicating a hard core player, turning less than hard core players into harcore players, engageing casual fans into becoming regular players. We need to promote the celebrities of the scene. Everyone likes a piece of hollywood. Problem with EVO is the competition, most everyone there is hardcore to some extent, and top players are there on mostly own dimes trying to win. We need to get them mobile across the community in less tourney like situations interacting with the lower end of the scene building it up through their popularity/success/personalities etc.
By
archalien, at 11:01 AM
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archalien, at 11:01 AM
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archalien, at 11:03 AM
James you sound like a Capcom shill praising SF4 for being so amazing for the scene when really that game is trash. SF4 has brought mostly whiners and kids and online warriors to the scene. And for everyone who was around before SF4, we get to play SF4, the game designed for 'noobs' who couldn't play harder SF games in the past. SF4 has done nothing for the scene and it has done everything for SF4. In the U.S. it's like the only fighting game is SF4 and that's all that matters.
Why not talk about how EVO is basically owned by Capcom and the event is now corporate and no longer run by players? Why was TvC included when that game is competitively dead? Why does EVO run MvC2 on the PS3 yet all other tournaments use the Dreamcast for Marvel? Is it because Capcom makes money from the PS3 version? Why not talk about how Remix Mode is used and not Classic Mode despite everyone but the 'newbs' hating Remix Mode? Why was 3S not given the last slot even though it got the second most votes in the player's choice poll? What happened to 'no selling stuff at EVO' but then Madcatz can have a booth? How is EVO an event for the entire community when only six games are chosen and SF4 gets two events and by far the most stream time?
Really James try to be honest and not just blindly praise SF4.
By
Anonymous, at 3:55 PM
You happen to have a point, if you love fighting games... then there should not be a deep spilt between communities. The time for that has ended, but I think that would only come with a level of respect between communities.
That will not be easy, when you have some people so set on being hardcore that it holds others back. I mean it difficult to get communities into BB, GG, SF, MvC, TvC, Smash, Tekken, MB, AH, MK, etc. at a place like Evo when you see the rivalies that take place online . I almost fear them spilling out on the floor.
That said, you are describing an issue that as plauged fighting communities. In the end, it's not so much a dynamic problem as it is a people problem. But you are right, the seperation needs to be less between us all.
By
Anonymous, at 5:23 PM
Why do people who write these posts ALWAYS have to post as Anonymous? It's exactly like I said in my first post on this blog that people love to stay hidden on the internet when they try and insult someone. Please, if you wanna accuse me of things, do it with a name. I'm not going to hunt you down and try to attack you. Do this man to man.
"James you sound like a Capcom shill praising SF4 for being so amazing for the scene when really that game is trash."
Just because you perceive the game to be trash doesn't necessarily mean it IS trash. I don't think it is, frankly. If you compare Street Fighter IV with CvS1, CFE, Street Fighter III: NG, SFA1, etc. etc. Street Fighter IV is an amazing game. Few Capcom Fighting games have ever had the balance and playability on their FIRST ATTEMPT as Street Fighter IV. There are faults in SFIV, but there are faults in EVERY game. I could go on and on and on about why CvS2 is bad or why Third Strike is bad... but I could just as easily go on and on about why SFIV is bad. SFIV isn't trash. At least not to me.
So by me praising it, I turn into a Capcom shill? Where's the logic in that? If I talk about how much I love the Lakers and Kobe Bryant, does that mean I work for the Lakers? I mean, really. You could be a Boston fan who hates the Lakers with a passion. Just because that's what you think, doesn't make me a person who is a Lakers shill.
"SF4 has brought mostly whiners and kids and online warriors to the scene."
Translation: SF4 has brought PEOPLE to the scene. Go play Halo online. Tell me how many whiners and online warriors there are there. Probably more than in SF4. That's people, sir, not SF4 players. I wrote to someone else once that "online sucks because it involves people." That's just the truth of the matter. You are NOT going to find ANY popular online game where you'll find a lot of people aren't idiots and whiners and rage quitters.
"And for everyone who was around before SF4, we get to play SF4, the game designed for 'noobs' who couldn't play harder SF games in the past. SF4 has done nothing for the scene and it has done everything for SF4. In the U.S. it's like the only fighting game is SF4 and that's all that matters."
Well, let's look at it like this. It is designed to gain a new audience. Yes. Is that wrong? Should you cater to the 200 Third Strike fans? Or the 100 CvS2 fans? Or should you try to make a game that's appealing to LOTS of people, including an untapped market of people who never played Fighting Games before? I don't understand why people always blame Capcom for trying to make a game easier for casual players to play. To me, that makes SENSE. Why alienate 95% of the people immediately by making a game that isn’t appealing to new players?
And to say SF4 has done nothing for the scene is ridiculous. Thanks to SF4, there is a huge return on Fighting Games. BlazBlue was released in Amercia... both versions!! Arcana Heart 3 is being released in America, I believe. Harada, the Tekken producer, is a much more visible public figure all of a sudden. There are more tournaments than ever out there that INCLUDE the games you love to play. How has SF4 not helped the scene?
(cont...)
By
jchensor, at 5:46 PM
"Why not talk about how EVO is basically owned by Capcom and the event is now corporate and no longer run by players?"
I'm actually complimented by this comment. It means that we've reached a point where it's professional and well-run enough that we can be accused of selling out. That's awesome.
Any time anything achieves a level of success, it always gets accused of selling out. Why is that?
"Why was TvC included when that game is competitively dead?"
We always give games chances. When it was new, we gave Virtua Fighter a chance. When it was new, we gave Dead or Alive a chance. And alongside TvC, we gave Melty Blood a chance.
"Why does EVO run MvC2 on the PS3 yet all other tournaments use the Dreamcast for Marvel?"
Because the DC is dead and we had none left and ran all of our games on flat screens. Running MvC2 on DC would have had lag and swapping out stations for CRTs just for MvC2 wasn’t worth it. No one complained about MvC2 on PS3 in the end.
"Why not talk about how Remix Mode is used and not Classic Mode despite everyone but the 'newbs' hating Remix Mode?"
More people play HDR than Classic Mode, I hate to tell you. And HDR was the new thing. If we ran a poll before Evo for Remix or Classic, HDR would have won over Classic Mode. Trust me. And this is coming from someone who hates HDR.
"Why was 3S not given the last slot even though it got the second most votes in the player's choice poll?"
It was executive decision. An Evo without MvC2 seemed wrong, especially given that MvC3 was coming. Third Strike players largely moved on to SFIV so most of those players still had something to play.
"What happened to 'no selling stuff at EVO' but then Madcatz can have a booth?"
When did we say no selling stuff at Evo?
"How is EVO an event for the entire community when only six games are chosen and SF4 gets two events and by far the most stream time?"
Look, you wanna run an event that size and run 10 games? You can call us not looking out for the community all you want, but at the same time we need to make sure we run a GOOD event. Running more than 6 games has proven in the past to be inefficient, especially when one game is taking in MORE THAN 1000 PLAYERS. And have you been on streams? Whenever other games get on them, everyone on the stream complains. I've watched plenty of streams for other tourneys, and whenever they show other games, everyone leaves or whines.
"Really James try to be honest and not just blindly praise SF4."
I am honest. I've never been anything but. If you want to talk honest, please log in with a real username and lemme know who you are and let’s talk like real people, instead of wild accusations and name calling. I’m always up for a debate and to argue it out with someone.
- James
By
jchensor, at 5:46 PM
Thanks for the article, James. I always enjoy them!
By
deadfrog, at 5:50 PM
"And to say SF4 has done nothing for the scene is ridiculous. Thanks to SF4, there is a huge return on Fighting Games. BlazBlue was released in Amercia... both versions!! Arcana Heart 3 is being released in America, I believe. Harada, the Tekken producer, is a much more visible public figure all of a sudden. There are more tournaments than ever out there that INCLUDE the games you love to play. How has SF4 not helped the scene?"
I don't see what SF4's release has to do with Tekken's sales in America being strong for years, or with Blazblue coming to America. Reviewers praised Blazblue as if Guilty Gear had never existed, I don't think SF4's existence mattered in that regard.(Don't get me wrong, BB is great, but the attention it got was strange considering Guilty Gear. Goes to show that looking pretty and having good online counts for a lot in America) You need to prove that SF4 actually mattered to these games, not just claim it. The circlejerking and namecalling of the insular SF4 community probably kept gamers new to fighting games from playing Blazblue instead.
I wish AH3 was getting an American release. It's getting a console port(By arcsys, no less!) but an american release has not been confirmed. Aksys did publish deathsmiles, though, so I'm hoping it will get a port, and that people will ignore all the moe fanservice in it, choose a badass like the piledriver-wielding Zenia, and get into that wonderfully deep game.
"Whenever other games get on them, everyone on the stream complains. I've watched plenty of streams for other tourneys, and whenever they show other games, everyone leaves or whines."
This rather reinforces my point.
By
Fersh, at 6:13 PM
Hello again James. Nice to see you back in the blogging business, since you're one of the most articulate members of this community.
Man, does history have a way of repeating itself. Two years ago, I lamented the drift away from insider-type perspective of how a game's level of play and community were evolving over time towards propaganda and promotion of an agenda, an agenda whose goals I view as dubious. In 2008, that agenda was “out with the old and in with the new” without regard to game quality; in 2010 it’s “accept SF4 as the monolith,” and hoping that Reagan-esque trickle-down theories work better in fighting games than they did in economics.
While it seems that SF4 is this giant wave that has taken over the scene entirely, many players do not agree that this change has been for the better. Indeed, it has occurred to the detriment of other game communities, as tournament organizers have put all their eggs in the SF4 basket to the exclusion of virtually every other game, especially the beloved classic trio of CvS2, 3rd strike, and MvC2.
To survive in the era of SF4, other game communities are going to have to fight even harder to make their game stand out, and increasingly will have to work outside of this "FGC" that apparently means "SF4...and other games." Time is precious, and the players of games other than SF4 should use it to promote their games, instead of learning SF4 in an attempt to pander to the SF4 masses. The average SF4 player has little interest in other games, except to act as a distraction in between playing SF4. Even if they are legitimately interested, they are stifled because they are unable to connect with players who could teach them how to play the other games, and because tournaments are refusing to include the other games as part of the main event.
What I really would like to see is the players of other games joining together to throw their own events. Instead of parasitically relying on the scraps of SF4 tournament organizers, who usually award them with the worst time slots and banish them to byoc areas, they could give lapsed fans a reason to practice again and provide opportunities for interested new players to actually learn the games. Anybody want to throw a CvS2/3s/MvC2/Whatever-not-SF4 event?
By
TRobb, at 6:35 PM
I wholeheartly agree with your sentiment in this article. SF4 is an amazing game that brought back the real feeling of playing Street Fighter (sorry 3rd Strike fans). I am completely enthused and stoked to play, watch, and interact with SF4 players, and while I’ve never been to an Evo (or on the west coast, family man and all), watching it on the stream is still really fun and inspiring. Up until last year, I never really got a feel for how Evo really was, it was always an event that happened far off and never really got me until it was streamed. Evo has helped me become invigorated with playing fighting games (been doing so since ‘91 World Warrior in the arcades), and SF4 has made progression fun. Is it the hardest, most skilled fighter out there…no. But it is fun to play and watch.
It’s too bad that there are so many negative feelings towards Street Fighter 4. I had a gathering at my house with my friends to play SSF4, and a top Maryland player named Steve was invited. He’s a nice guy and all, and he soundly defeated all of us (with an 80 game win streak) at SSF4 which was inspiring to me to see how much more potential for better play there was in the game. However he soured the whole thing when he lamented on how much he hates SSF4 and thinks it garbage. It’s this attitude that completely deflated the fun of enjoying the game. If more players in my area are like this, it kills the scene for new players and inhibits camaraderie. I guess most people can’t see past their favorite games to the bigger picture. SF4 is an opportunity to grow the scene and involve more people in the fighting game community. I really hope short sightedness doesn’t kill it off.
And while I liked SF2HF, SSF2T, and CVS2, I think that SSF4 is Capcom’s finest fighting game ever. If this is the future for Capcom and other fighters, I welcome it.
By
Eric Dixon aka UrkAngiJordi, at 11:01 PM
The "Steve" that an earlier player is referring to is "Steve Harrison." And the 80 game win streak he had was probably with Sagat.
He didn't like the game at vanilla SFIV when his character was viewed as "overpowered" and he doesn't like it now when Capcom listened to these new players and anchored the game even more around bland, dry, reductive options in the neutral game and safe jump option select offense. He has to account for someone being dumb every second he plays, and while he can control that with OS he sees that there's little strategic variety in playing Rock/Paper/Scissors with throw vs normal frame trap.
While he's still a top player beating these people. I get what people want to say in regard to this, that skill still wins... but he's not having any fun. So why would he want to lend you his support? Why would he not voice his criticism? He plays the game at the very least, I think a lot of players need to understand that some players have been around and that this newer game isn't going to deter them from being good or telling them how they feel about a game they dislike but play because this is currently what is perceived to be "Street Fighter."
I don't think it's realistic at this point to say SFIV is so simple that anyone can watch it and tell what's going on. Just hearing Adam Sessler's commentary, watching a local player community I helped start take at least 2 years to really start understanding what was going, having a player view fighting games as "execution" (I gotta hit my links, but they're just spamming fireballs) while failing to grasp distances and projectiles... that mindset, that ignorance DOMINATED Super SFIV's changes. I remember Kim1234 going into #Capcom and telling those players that they would all buy whatever Capcom puts in front of them.
And he's right.
I don't think the game is really that accessible as folks make it out to be, nor is it this great thing that folks should just get behind it just because. And while a robust community like what you have on the West Coast is great for ensuring a higher standard of play... it's still a higher standard of play in a game that is admittedly strategically lacking in a lot of ways compared to previous games.
I'm hoping Marvel 3 is something the community can rally behind. Because while SFIV opened the gates, I don't see a future in such a dry game. While I can see people in the future playing SFIV... I'm still of the mindset I'm being very GENEROUS when I see that future. When I hear someone saying Combofiend is going to do something dumb with Guy on stream and it's in SFIV it's like "And what else was he gonna do with Guy?"
I hope AE puts some of the backbone back into the game, as the game is currently, it's a very dumb, diminishing game. I hope some of what was lost from Vanilla finds it's way back before we even start talking about investing the community, heart and soul, into the game.
By
Anonymous, at 4:57 AM
"You need to prove that SF4 actually mattered to these games, not just claim it."
That's a valid challenge. Just from my perception, the tides have changed for Fighting Games. For a while, Fighting Games were considered wastes of time, but it just feels like people are interested in Fighting Games again and people care again. Maybe it is just a perception from my viewpoint.
"The circlejerking and namecalling of the insular SF4 community probably kept gamers new to fighting games from playing Blazblue instead."
It's a two-way street, really. Chicken or the egg? I mean, really, the course of events really was: 1. Street Fighter IV became super popular. 2. Street Fighter IV was shown to be fairly simplistic compared to other Fighting Games. 3. Everyone started insulting everything.
It's hard to say if the SFIV community got defensive about their game because everyone was talking shit about it or if everyone else became defensive because SFIV players were talking shit about them. Regardless of which came first, it's a bad situation we're in. The Fighting Game Community can almost be considered to be divided into two communities now: SFIV and Not-SFIV.
The point of this entire blog post was not to say to accept SFIV as king, as I said in the post itself. But what the other communities need to do is to figure out HOW to leverage the influx of SFIV players. The first thing to do would be to stop the circle of insults and maybe learn to appreciate that SFIV IS a playable game, and once they do that, they can more kindly get SFIV players to migrate to their game. Then, the SFIV players may not get defensive and they can start appreciating other games. But if you try to get SFIV players to migrate by telling them, "Do it because your game sucks," no one will ever get anywhere. Someone needs to break the cycle of insults first, and UNFORTUNATELY, the SFIV group have little to gain to be the more mature group and initiate it. But the other communities have a lot to gain from it, which is the ONLY reason why I feel as though they need to make the first move.
"'Whenever other games get on them, everyone on the stream complains.'
This rather reinforces my point."
Right, the reason I bring this up is because the other games are really in a pickle. If people enjoyed watching the other games, you'd bet they'd be on the stream, but the general public doesn't GET the games, which is why I still claim that SFIV is so easy to watch. Its simplicity is paramount to its success.
Part of the fault of this IS the commentators as someone mentioned elsewhere. The commentators who are on for most of the other games are not doing their job helping people learn their game and understanding it. That's why when I do commentary for SFIV, despite it being fairly simple, I still discuss it from a VERY low level and explain lots of things. it's better to assume your audience is ignorant than it is to assume they know a lot.
But this isn't the fault of the communities of the other games. Commentary is HARD. And it really does take certain types of people to RECOGNIZE what it is that should be explained. I've actually been taking some time to try and learn other games, like BlazBlue, more in depth so hopefully, if I ever do commentary for that game, I can help educate players on it. That might help make people appreciate those games being streamed more.
Streaming is very tricky, and it's new. Right now, everyone is still trying to figure it out. So it's hard to say where it'll go. Hopefully, it can get to a point where we have enough professional commentators who can really solve the problem of disinterest from viewers.
- James
By
jchensor, at 2:12 PM
"...an agenda whose goals I view as dubious. In 2008, that agenda was “out with the old and in with the new” without regard to game quality; in 2010 it’s “accept SF4 as the monolith,”"
The main problem is that we're in a media that is so different than any other form of entertainment. Whereas it's simple and still profitable for movie companies to re-release their media onto new formats, it's not profitable NOR simple for game developers to port their games over to newer formats. It's just the life our form of entertainment lives.
So the whole concept of "out with the old and in with the new" is inevitable. At least until the event actually DOES get corporate sponsorship and can grow into something larger. If EVO, for example, can become big enough to be, say, a WEEK LONG event, then it'll be a lot easier to run 8, 9, 15 games at one event, and play all the old games. But as long as EVO and all other tournaments remain "grass-roots" and run within a weekend, you HAVE to transition to newer things or risk being a cult -- and a VERY small one at that -- for the rest of your life.
Ironically, by supporting the newer games and "moving on" so-to-speak, you actually INCREASE the chances of old games coming back. By sticking to the older games too steadfastly, you hurt growth of the entire community and, thus, are actually doing more harm than good.
Out with the old and in with the new IS depressing. You don't even know how sad I was to see ST no longer at EVO (replaced by an inferior HDR, IMO). ST is still my favorite Fighting Game of all time and I used to fight for its inclusion at EVO every year. But even now I cannot argue its case. The public plays HDR now, so I, too, have to begrudgingly accept out with the old and in with the new.
"While it seems that SF4 is this giant wave that has taken over the scene entirely, many players do not agree that this change has been for the better."
This is the entire point of my post: to get people to see it differently. An influx of people who now play A Fighting Game helps no matter what. Guess what? The community playing BlazBlue, right now, would probably be the same size whether SFIV came out or not. SFIV, I doubt, has hurt those communities in any way, shape, or form. The only game it MIGHT have hurt was Third Strike, just because that game was just the "de facto" Street Fighter game being played at the time.
But for other communities, they can only benefit from the influx of people interested in the games. They just need to take the time to cater to the new players, and honestly I think Arc Sys is doing a FANTASTIC job of it, right now, including great tutorials IN GAME and releasing those informative YouTube videos. BlazBlue fans need to communicate those out to the SFIV players, for example, more visibly than they have.
"To survive in the era of SF4, other game communities are going to have to fight even harder to make their game stand out"
See, again, this is where I disagree. Before SFIV, Fighting Games had fallen completely off the map. There weren't people even interested in Fighting Games. Yeah, it's hard to get the SFIV players to accept other games, but those same players who are new to SFIV, without SFIV, would have NEVER LOOKED IN THE FIRST PLACE. But now, you actually have people watching tournaments and going to events and noticing other games. I think there's a greater potential for other games to grow thanks to the SFIV community.
"What I really would like to see is the players of other games joining together to throw their own events... Anybody want to throw a CvS2/3s/MvC2/Whatever-not-SF4 event?"
This would be a very interesting idea. I actually think it's fantastic. If anyone wants to hold a "Fighting Game Classics" tournament, you guys should organize, start discussing, and get on it! I would support an event that like ANY day of the week.
- James
By
jchensor, at 2:32 PM
"When I hear someone saying Combofiend is going to do something dumb with Guy on stream and it's in SFIV it's like 'And what else was he gonna do with Guy?'"
I'm not even sure what this comment is supposed to mean, to be honest. First of all, what classifies something Combofiend would do with Guy as "dumb"? And having someone do something that's obvious in the right situations is... something people do in ALL competitive sports. It's like seeing someone hit a great cross-court shot in tennis getting his/her opponent out of position, and volleying the return to the other side of the court before the player can recover. Of COURSE they are gonna hit it to the other side of the court. But... why wouldn't they? Does that make tennis boring?
I frankly think Combofiend's Guy is so much fun to watch. I don't find anything he does dumb or boring.
- James
By
jchensor, at 2:54 PM
Those are Viscant's words. Maybe he's being facetious but he brought it up quite a bit in 2v2 team finals. I don't think it's a fair statement, either.
By
Anonymous, at 4:49 PM
"For a while, Fighting Games were considered wastes of time, but it just feels like people are interested in Fighting Games again and people care again. Maybe it is just a perception from my viewpoint."
This is just my viewpoint(and the answer does not merely lie as a middle place between our viewpoints, or an aggregate) but I don't think this has changed that much. Most people still seem hesitant to give a shit about fighting games, having an automatic "Meh, 2d fighters suck, who cares?" response. I'm not sure why, but I suspect: 1)The image of "fireball wars" ignorantly burns in their mind like "lifeless poopsocker" does for MMOs 2)Fighters don't hold your hand and make you the hero like most games. They got burned playing at an earlier time, so they view them negatively now. 3)Stupid internet coverage that acts like fighters are simple and dated.
I think MvC3 has potential to be HUGE though, especially if for people who are lightly familiar with fighters don't see it as unbalanced as MvC2(but still "broken" in the sense of "everyone is powerful as fuck" is fine) I don't think SF4 somehow made people who wouldn't have reacted well to fighters somehow interested. It did bring people to the genre though, yeah. But I don't think negative perceptions of fighting games have really diminished.
"Chicken or egg, community division, cycle stuff"
Fair enough. I've been struggling with leveraging SF4's influx, though.
I totally agree with what you say about commentators. I feel like they miss a lot of opportunities.
Speaking of Blazblue, are you going to Norcall install?
By
Fersh, at 6:53 PM
James if you hate HDR so much then why not fight for Classic Mode instead of Remix Mode? If anyone can it would be you. Why does EVO run Remix Mode when pretty much everyone who makes top 8 hates playing that mode? How are we supposed to interact with the Japanese ST community when they play a different game for tournaments?
If ST is really your favorite fighting game and you think it's the greatest fighter of all time then you're basically saying that EVO isn't about quality but about quantity. If Remix draws in more gamers, no matter how good (or bad) they are, it is better for EVO than if they use Classic but with lower turnout of higher level players. EVO only cares about numbers for their games and not about quality of the games. This is why people accuse EVO of selling out at the behest of Capcom.
EVO took the greatest SF game of all time and shit all over it with Remix Mode. This was supposed to be a grass roots event right? For the hardcore players? What is grass roots and hardcore about Remix Mode?
On a side note more props need to be given to the BB community for (indirectly) giving their spot to the Marvel community. It was nice seeing Marvel 2 have a last year and a nice transition for next year where Marvel 3 will probably be a game.
By
Anonymous, at 4:04 PM
"Speaking of Blazblue, are you going to Norcall install?"
When and where is it? Is this different than the next NorCal Regionals?
"James if you hate HDR so much..."
Well, to clarify, I complain a lot about HDR, but I really do need to point out that it's unfair to say I hate the game. It's still 95% ST, and so it's impossible to hate such a game. I just have... very... POINTED criticisms about the game. So I definitely come off as hating it a lot, and I don't really truly hate the game.
"...then why not fight for Classic Mode instead of Remix Mode? If anyone can it would be you."
Who's to say I didn't try?
"Why does EVO run Remix Mode when pretty much everyone who makes top 8 hates playing that mode?"
That's actually just not true. Top 8 this year was full of very avid HDR fans, particularly the top 2: DGV and Snake Eyez. Not playing HDR at EVO, when it's a brand new game, would have been a HUGE disservice to players like DGV and Snake Eyez, who love the game truly. Just because I personally have problems with the game, that doesn't mean I should try and ruin it for others, particularly a community trying to find its place and strengthen its roots.
"If ST is really your favorite fighting game and you think it's the greatest fighter of all time then you're basically saying that EVO isn't about quality but about quantity."
No, that's just saying _I_ think ST is better, and what I think isn't right. It's still my opinion, and that's all it is. Unlike TEH INTERNETZ, I understand that my viewpoint is exactly that: my viewpoint. I may like ST more than HDR, but there are many who will and HAVE argued with me. To them, HDR is a much higher quality than ST. Just because I know the guys who run EVO should not mean I should get my way more than anyone else. My goal isn't to craft an EVO tailor made for me.
"EVO only cares about numbers for their games and not about quality of the games. This is why people accuse EVO of selling out at the behest of Capcom."
Again, numbers are facts. Which games are better is opinion. Quality is entirely subjective, and any decision made for the reason of "because it's better" is more susceptible to scrutiny than any other reason. If I said I wanted to drop Third Strike because I personally think Third Strike is boring and SFIV is a better game, man, I would be flamed off the internet faster than you can say "Parry." But if I said, "SFIV has the potential to draw in 1000+ players whereas Third Strike does not," it's harder to argue against that. And if we were focused only on numbers, we wouldn't go out and take chances on games like TvC and Melty Blood.
"EVO took the greatest SF game of all time and shit all over it with Remix Mode."
Tell that to DGV, Snake Eyez, Aqua Snake, Thelo, EAMegaman, SweetJohnnyV, etc. etc. See what they have to say about that.
"On a side note more props need to be given to the BB community for (indirectly) giving their spot to the Marvel community. It was nice seeing Marvel 2 have a last year and a nice transition for next year where Marvel 3 will probably be a game."
That was HUGE, IMO. I really do give the BB community a TON of credit for that. They seriously deserve a standing O for that gesture.
- James
By
jchensor, at 8:03 PM
Love the post.
People need to realise that all the kids and whiners came to poker too when it blew out in popularity.
The fact that there are still dedicated television shows with big prize pools shows it's still profitable.
The analogy isn't 100% correct, but it's good enough. The main reason SF4 exploded was online at home play for the masses, CAPCOM stated it themselves, they never expected that to have as much impact. Now you could play anyone, anytime, from your lounge room. Following up from that, you are in an era of YouTube and social media, so you can also connect to the community from your couch. These people then go out and buy TE sticks, SSF4, DLC, and know what a gamerbee or a tokido is.
SF became convenient, and while heading down to an arcade is still an unbeatable experience, being able to sneak in a few rounds before work/bedtime can't be under estimated.
Then there is the community that doesn't play the games (the girlfriends etc) who find watching Street Fighter High funny, even though they can't really play outside of the occasional accidental raging demon, they get the game. Just like the majority of people who watch boxing can't box, as people start to appreciate there is a lot more going on than just hitting buttons, and the stakes go up, it becomes compelling viewing.
By
Anonymous, at 8:22 PM
"When and where is it? Is this different than the next NorCal Regionals?"
http://iplaywinner.com/news/2010/9/28/norcal-install-tournament-this-weekend-featuring-blazblue-me.html
alternatively
http://www.dustloop.com/forums/showthread.php?9949-The-Future-of-NorCal-INSTALL!-%CE%B3-3-Monthly-Ranbats
Big cali meetup thing. Has mike Z, dacid, severin, those sorts of folks regularly.
By
Fersh, at 8:38 PM
If it was publicly known that your mom had sex with dudes for money, and i called her a whore to your face you'd probably still be offended and pissed, even if what i said was a fact.
SF4 is a dumbed down fighting game, it just is, but you can't go around trashing it to these newer players because its all they know. They didn't play ST or MVC2 or CVS2 or GG or Tekken on any type of level above button masher. SF4 is "home" to them and no matter how smart or knowledgable or good intentioned someone trying to help you is, once they call your mom a whore you pretty much shut them out.
By
Anonymous, at 9:53 AM
nice posts ;)
another thing that helps the community tremendously now more than ever is that the 'hardcore players' are now much older. we need to fully utilize this while we can.
anyways, my main concern is this. poker has been around for what, seven billion years? despite the fact that it wasn't as public as it is now, it still has a very long history. there is an immediate gain for the community when they can 'easily' tap into the high level play.
exposure is good, but what really gets people to play is how easy it is to learn.
unfortunately, it is not for fighting games and it will never be. just the fact that there are ~20 normals, a handful of specials, supers and ultras PER CHARACTER in a SF4.. (and this is an EASY game, right? ahaha) it's not as easy as people think it is to 'pick it up'. sure, it is easy to spectate, but it's not easy to play. you can try to dumb it down by "have more life when the timer runs out, or kill your opponent to win", but that's like dumbing down chess as "take the king". i am not talking about understanding the winning conditions, but about the methods of getting there.
basketball is about getting higher points, but they get there with a simple mechanic. throw the ball around the hoop.
fighting game is about beating the other guy.. but the mechanic is IMPOSSIBLE to grasp for new folks. hit the other guy. wait, how? wait wtf was that? specials? i gotta do what? charge time?? stop jumping? HEY FUCKER YOU JUST THREW ME YOU CHEAPASS. what's blocking? etc etc. you might argue i'm not comparing apples to apples since there are nuances in everything else, but i am if you think about it.
what needs to happen is for this older core of hardcore players to come up with better ways to educate the essence of fighting games and maybe make or influence a truly simple game that people can pick up as a mainstream game.
sf4 is a 'scrubby' game.. but my stance is that it's still not scrubby enough for the general public. making already complex aspects of the game easier to perform does not help the public. what helps is to make it easier to understand the core of the game so that they can enjoy the game for the essence, not the specifics.
i don't know what this game might be.. and i don't know how to go about making it.
but until this is done, i don't think fighting games will ever be mainstream.
it's just too damn complicated.
By
Unknown, at 12:49 PM
"Big cali meetup thing. Has mike Z, dacid, severin, those sorts of folks regularly."
Damn, no, won't be able to make that, especially seeing at how it's tomorrow and I didn't know about it 'til now. ^_^
"fighting game is about beating the other guy.. but the mechanic is IMPOSSIBLE to grasp for new folks. hit the other guy. wait, how? wait wtf was that? specials? i gotta do what? charge time?? stop jumping? HEY FUCKER YOU JUST THREW ME YOU CHEAPASS. what's blocking? etc etc. you might argue i'm not comparing apples to apples since there are nuances in everything else, but i am if you think about it.
what needs to happen is for this older core of hardcore players to come up with better ways to educate the essence of fighting games and maybe make or influence a truly simple game that people can pick up as a mainstream game."
This is an EXTREMELY insightful comment, and I agree 100%. As simple as it make look to play Street Fighter, the one thing I noticed is that, if you really don't know how to play it, it's REALLY hard to figure out how to play it properly. And there is no way, in game, to learn how to play it properly either. And that's because Street Fighter is NOT a game you can learn on your own, it's SO heavily involved with the other player.
To be honest, though, it has been a concern of mine and I've really been thinking of a new methodology for teaching Street Fighter. If I can actually find the time, I may try and implement it and see if it actually works.
- James
By
jchensor, at 1:21 PM
"SF4 is a dumbed down fighting game, it just is, but you can't go around trashing it to these newer players because its all they know. They didn't play ST or MVC2 or CVS2 or GG or Tekken on any type of level above button masher. SF4 is "home" to them and no matter how smart or knowledgable or good intentioned someone trying to help you is, once they call your mom a whore you pretty much shut them out."
You have a very good point, though it's definitely stated in a weird way. LOL!
This is true with anything, and it's why we are all in the mess we are in. When SFIV players hate on other games, the fans of those games become similarly offended and start to shut out the SFIV players as well.
Again, the idea of this post is that the cycle needs to stop. SOMEONE needs to break the cycle of hate and start WORKING with the other half to allow stronger growth within the community. Unfortunately for the Anti-SFIV half, the SFIV have nothing to gain making that first step. But the Anti-SFIV half has a LOT to gain from taking that first step, which is why I make the plea to stop hating on SFIV and to try and appeal to the players of the game as opposed to talking down to them and ruining your chances for getting new players from the get-go.
In other words, don't say, "SFIV is trash, come play BlazBlue!" Try something more along the lines of, "Hey, if you like SFIV, you should try BlazBlue. It's fun and not hard at all. Lemme show you how to play!"
- James
By
jchensor, at 1:25 PM
There are a lot of comments I'd like to respond to, but doing so would probably provide several blogs worth of text.
"The main problem is that we're in a media that is so different than any other... as long as EVO and all other tournaments remain "grass-roots" …you HAVE to transition to newer things or risk being a cult" - It’s not like all the ps2s went up in smoke the instant sf4 came out. The SF community isn't part of the game industry, so why support the new over the old, regardless of quality? The SF community doesn’t have control over the evolution of future SF products. But as a grass-roots community, we can still support whatever we want, and that includes older, better games.
If chasing corporate dollars is evo’s goal, I really think they’re getting ahead of themselves. Most sports have grown by focusing on quality first and foremost, gradually building a following that becomes large enough to be a target for corporate $$. There is no shame in being a cult - especially since the SF community is still relatively young. We do NOT want to be a fad like poker. Like archalien said in his great comment, slow growth with an extremely dedicated base >> then a fad explosion of casuals.
"by supporting the newer games and "moving on" so-to-speak, you actually INCREASE the chances of old games coming back. By sticking to the older games too steadfastly, you hurt growth of the entire community and, thus, are actually doing more harm than good...The public plays HDR now, so I, too, have to begrudgingly accept out with the old and in with the new." - You are asking people, who are trying to get better and enjoy their game now, to stop playing and play a game they don't like. The reason for doing this, you say, is for the possibility of a comeback years down the road. That's an awful big leap of faith to ask these players and communities to take. Also, to say that these people are hurting the community is a bit twisted – how does playing what you want hurt anything? And there is a public that prefers and plays ST, it’s just that evo staff has chosen to cater to the HDR people over the ST people. Much as evo staff chose to cater to the ps3 marvel and melty blood players over the cvs2 and 3rd strike players…but I digress. There are not many HDR communities– it is an online-only game, just like ST is these days.
"The community playing BlazBlue, right now, would probably be the same size whether SFIV came out or not. SFIV, I doubt, has hurt those communities in any way, shape, or form. The only game it MIGHT have hurt was Third Strike..."
If blazblue had been the only online 2d fighting game available, it may have been much bigger than it is, it's hard to say. But it's the latter statement of the two is the one that gets me. There used to be vibrant tournament scenes for 3s, cvs2 and marvel. Those are all but dead now. I don't see how you can argue that those communities were anything but destroyed by sf4 in the US.
"BlazBlue fans need to communicate those out to the SFIV players, for example, more visibly than they have." - Non-sf4 players do need to hold events for their games, and it is in their interest to have a presence at SF4 tournaments. But I don't think anybody should have to play sf4 and describe their games "in sf4 terms.” Time spent learning sf4 is time taken away from playing and promoting blazblue, which is a far better use of time if your goal is to get good and compete in blazblue.
"Before SFIV, Fighting Games had fallen completely off the map...But now, you actually have people watching tournaments and going to events ..." - This sounds as though SF4 invented the SF community. You know better, so I don't know why you keep saying it. Also, it isn't said enough how much affordable internet streaming, podcasts, and the growth of the gaming press have increased the visibility of street fighter the last few years. This would have brought in new people regardless of SF4.
By
TRobb, at 7:08 PM
There are a lot of comments I'd like to respond to, but doing so would probably provide several blogs worth of text.
"The main problem is that we're in a media that is so different than any other... as long as EVO and all other tournaments remain "grass-roots" …you HAVE to transition to newer things or risk being a cult"
It's not like all the ps2s went up in smoke the instant sf4 came out. The SF community isn't part of the game industry, so why support the new over the old, regardless of quality? The SF community doesn’t have control over the evolution of future SF products. But as a grass-roots community, we can still support whatever we want, and that includes older, better games.
If chasing corporate dollars is evo’s goal, I really think they’re getting ahead of themselves. Most sports have grown by focusing on quality first and foremost, gradually building a following that becomes large enough to be a target for corporate $$. There is no shame in being a cult - especially since the SF community is still relatively young. We do NOT want to be a fad like poker. Like archalien said in his great comment, slow growth with an extremely dedicated base >> then a fad explosion of casuals.
"by supporting the newer games and "moving on" so-to-speak, you actually INCREASE the chances of old games coming back. By sticking to the older games too steadfastly, you hurt growth of the entire community and, thus, are actually doing more harm than good...The public plays HDR now, so I, too, have to begrudgingly accept out with the old and in with the new."
You are asking people, who are trying to get better and enjoy their game now, to stop playing and play a game they don't like. The reason for doing this, you say, is for the possibility of a comeback years down the road. That's an awful big leap of faith to ask these players and communities to take. Also, to say that these people are hurting the community is a bit twisted – how does playing what you want hurt anything? And there is a public that prefers and plays ST, it’s just that evo staff has chosen to cater to the HDR people over the ST people. Much as evo staff chose to cater to the ps3 marvel and melty blood players over the cvs2 and 3rd strike players…but I digress. There are not many HDR communities– it is an online-only game, just like ST is these days.
"The community playing BlazBlue, right now, would probably be the same size whether SFIV came out or not. SFIV, I doubt, has hurt those communities in any way, shape, or form. The only game it MIGHT have hurt was Third Strike..."
If blazblue had been the only online 2d fighting game available, it may have been much bigger than it is, it's hard to say. But it's the latter statement of the two is the one that gets me. There used to be vibrant tournament scenes for 3s, cvs2 and marvel. Those are all but dead now. I don't see how you can argue that those communities were anything but destroyed by sf4 in the US.
"BlazBlue fans need to communicate those out to the SFIV players, for example, more visibly than they have."
Non-sf4 players do need to hold events for their games, and it is in their interest to have a presence at SF4 tournaments. But I don't think anybody should have to play sf4 and describe their games "in sf4 terms.” Time spent learning sf4 is time taken away from playing and promoting blazblue, which is a far better use of time if your goal is to get good and compete in blazblue.
"Before SFIV, Fighting Games had fallen completely off the map...But now, you actually have people watching tournaments and going to events ..." - This sounds as though SF4 invented the SF community. You know better, so I don't know why you keep saying it. Also, it isn't said enough how much affordable internet streaming, podcasts, and the growth of the gaming press have increased the visibility of street fighter the last few years. This would have brought in new people regardless of SF4.
By
TRobb, at 7:11 PM
Hey James, any reason my last comment hasn't been posted?
By
TRobb, at 10:16 AM
"There are a lot of comments I'd like to respond to, but doing so would probably provide several blogs worth of text."
Isn't it great? ^_^ I enjoy these kinds of discussions.
"But as a grass-roots community, we can still support whatever we want, and that includes older, better games.
If chasing corporate dollars is evo’s goal, I really think they’re getting ahead of themselves. Most sports have grown by focusing on quality first and foremost, gradually building a following that becomes large enough to be a target for corporate $$. There is no shame in being a cult - especially since the SF community is still relatively young. We do NOT want to be a fad like poker. Like archalien said in his great comment, slow growth with an extremely dedicated base >> then a fad explosion of casuals."
Yeah, I can't speak for anyone else, especially the guys on the Evo Staff, but I see it differently than a lot of people, I guess.
I'm coming from a very unique standpoint because there probably are NOT as many people who have dedicated this much of their life to the Fighting Game Community as me. I'm not saying I've DONE more than anyone else, I'm only saying that I've invested a lot of time and effort into it, and I've been in it since World Warrior. It is about less than half a year now shy of 20 years that I've been playing Street Fighter and being in the community.
So to me, I feel like we HAD already built up a base and all I’ve done is watch it slowly shrink. For 5 years before Street Fighter IV came out, the scene basically was stagnant. As much as we'd like to THINK that it was cool and awesome when we were a cult, I dunno... in my eyes, I was seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. Fighting Games simply were nothing, ready to die off. I was pretty much ready to move on within the next couple of years. That's the reason why I wrote these "community" pieces in the first place: to see if I could inspire people to really build up their community. But year after year, communities only grew smaller or remained stagnant or just disappeared. The scene really needed a boost.
Seeing what Street Fighter IV has done really has awoken my spirits. I'm excited for Fighting Games again. I can't wait for majors and I'm back to wanting to write and help players and such. I haven't felt this way in a while.
See, the honest truth is this: ten years ago, I was young... naive. I was hoping that Fighting Games could get to a point where pro gamers would be a reality. Where professional Street Fighter players would make a living off of only the game and nothing else. I wanted to be one. And as the years rolled by, I became 100% convinced I would never see that in my lifetime.
So you have to understand where my mind is with the recent explosion. This is HUGE in my book. Having players like Justin Wong signed by EvilGeniuses and such was a pipe dream long ago, and it's getting closer to reality. It’s still not enough to be a full-time career, but it’s closer than ever.
I'm not in it for corporate cash. I'm in it because I want the real talent to be able to live off of this. It's been my dream for... forever, really, and to see it getting closer only whets my appetite. We've been a cult for about 15 years now and, frankly, I am actually NOT okay with being a cult anymore.
Again, understand, my viewpoint is highly shaped by many, many years of stagnation.
(continued next post...)
By
jchensor, at 12:58 AM
The problem with Street Fighter is that we DO need to continue to move forward. For games like Poker, you can always get a new deck of cards. For games like Basketball, as long as there are courts out there and someone has a ball, people can still play the games.
But for video games, it's hard just to even play the games anymore. Yes, PS2's have not been burned to the ground, but who has it still hooked up? Do I really want to have my entertainment center with a PS2, DreamCast, PS3, XBox 360, and a Nintendo Wii all hooked up at the same time? Not only that, but all the new TVs these days can't even play those old systems without lag. I have this giant TV in my bedrood I really want to replace with a flat screen on my wall, but I'm frightened to get rid of that TV because I can't play old consoles without lag if I lose the TV.
Technology is an evil thing, and it is designed to advance. And unfortunately, unlike the PC market, very few things in the console market are backwards compatible. I just can't see trying to maintain older games. If we keep old games like Third Strike and Marvel Vs. Capcom 2, the new gamers of the world won't be playing with us. SO everyone playing the game is just going to grow old and, when we're all married and have kids, the scene is gone. THe only way for the scene to continue growth is to continually get more players in it, and we aren't gonna do that with games 10 years old. We'd love to think people are smart enough and open enough to go back and play old games. But the sad truth is that it just doesn't happen. If MvC2 or Third Strike was never released on XBLA or PSN, no new players would be picking it up.
"You are asking people, who are trying to get better and enjoy their game now, to stop playing and play a game they don't like. The reason for doing this, you say, is for the possibility of a comeback years down the road. That's an awful big leap of faith to ask these players and communities to take."
Well, that's not exactly what I'm saying. I'm not telling people to leave their games. They can continue to play them all they want. The thing is, they are going to be playing it with the same shrinking crowd for a very long time. Unless they stop being bitter about SFIV's popularity and try to figure out how to leverage it, they are just going to remain in their corner forever. If you can figure out a way to generate interest in the older games in the new crowd, you may be able to get your old scene to grow again. It's happened before. See ST on GPPO. There was a major resurgence for that game. But those things aren't going to happen out of nowhere.
"Also, to say that these people are hurting the community is a bit twisted – how does playing what you want hurt anything?"
Being bitter and angry and complaining about SFIV is what I mean by hurting the community. Playing what you want is fine.
(continued next post...)
By
jchensor, at 1:00 AM
"And there is a public that prefers and plays ST, it’s just that evo staff has chosen to cater to the HDR people over the ST people. Much as evo staff chose to cater to the ps3 marvel and melty blood players over the cvs2 and 3rd strike players…but I digress. There are not many HDR communities– it is an online-only game, just like ST is these days."
Again, HDR and ST -- which is better -- is a debatable topic. There's no right or wrong answer on which is a better quality game. So if HDR has brought in new players, why not hold a tournament for them? Let me ask: why DOESN’T the HDR community deserve having a tournament run for them? They are arguably larger than the ST crowd is right now. Why not reward them for trying to build something up?
"If blazblue had been the only online 2d fighting game available, it may have been much bigger than it is, it's hard to say."
Agreed... but I highly doubt it.
"But it's the latter statement of the two is the one that gets me. There used to be vibrant tournament scenes for 3s, cvs2 and marvel. Those are all but dead now. I don't see how you can argue that those communities were anything but destroyed by sf4 in the US."
Like I said, MvC2 was already dying. The players playing it were the same guys who have been playing it for years. My complaint about CvS2 was that, for the past 5 or 6 years at Evo, the same players made top 8 every time. Attendance for each of these games dropped continually year after year. I just don't see how this counts as being vibrant. A scene cannot remain vibrant without new blood.
"Non-sf4 players do need to hold events for their games, and it is in their interest to have a presence at SF4 tournaments. But I don't think anybody should have to play sf4 and describe their games "in sf4 terms.” Time spent learning sf4 is time taken away from playing and promoting blazblue, which is a far better use of time if your goal is to get good and compete in blazblue."
I don't think they need to play it, but they need to understand it so they can work with the new players. Again, I'm not begging everyone to play SFIV, I'm begging everyone to stop HATING it and being bitter about it. I mean, on SRK, everytime I post a new article on the front page, it devolves into me defending SFIV in the comments, because invariably someone has to find a way to twist what I am saying into a complaint about the game. That's the unhealthy part.
"This sounds as though SF4 invented the SF community. You know better, so I don't know why you keep saying it. Also, it isn't said enough how much affordable internet streaming, podcasts, and the growth of the gaming press have increased the visibility of street fighter the last few years. This would have brought in new people regardless of SF4."
I dunno. I will have to disagree with you on that, but there's really no way to prove it one way or the other. Again, maybe I'm cynical because I've been around for too long, but I have never seen anything like this before since classic Street Fighter II. Street Fighter IV may not have invented the SF Community, but it's certainly revived it like nobody's business.
- James
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jchensor, at 1:01 AM
As a fellow fighting game fanatic who just started playing competitively (SSF4 and BB, keepin' an eye out for others) a few months ago, I couldn't agree any more. Well done article.
There are a few questions that I've been thinking about lately?
With the resurgence of the fighting genre, will we ever see a new fighting game IP?
Now I love SF just as much as the next man. It is a part of my childhood and continues to be a fun factor in my life. But SF can't go on forever. We were lucky enough for it to survive 20 years, can it survive 10 more years? The same can be said for any other FG out now. MvC3 is lookin like the grand finale of the Marvel series, GGAC might be the last GG we'll have for a few years seeing how ASW is focused on BB (who can blame them, BB is making them money both in Japan and the US), and lord knows how much longer they're gonna milk the Tekken franchise.
Companies can crank out as many sequels and reboots and collaborations they want, but with the FG Renaissance underway this might be the best time to introduce something completely new to the FG community and the masses. Finacially, this might be a challenge, but developers can't continue to be afraid to take risks. Hell SF4 was a major risk for Capcom and look at it now. Someone has to do it, whether it's Mike Z's Skullgirls or Sirlin's IP, at some point it has to be done. While BB was a good start it simply wasn't enough.
(continued on next post.)
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Momotaro, at 10:04 PM
Can other communities really blame SF4 for its massive popularity that eclipses over every fighter right now, even Tekken?
No. I've been saying this ever since the whole SF4 debate started.
"Don't blame the game for its popularity, or Capcom for making it accessible for newcomers . If you're gonna blame someone it might as well be the people."
I was talking about this at a local gathering last Saturday with my fellow OK players. I'll use one of the examples I used.
You can walk up to any random gamer who probably doesn't play FGs that much and show them two pictures. One of Chun-Li from SF, the other is Litchi of BB fame. Ask them, "Do any of these characters look familiar?" A majority of the time they'll say, Oh yea that's Chun-Li!" or "Dude it's Chun-Li!" Ask them about Litchi and you'll probably get, "Who's she? Looks hot though." or "Dunno who she is, looks like something out of an anime."
SF is just more familiar to the masses. There's nothing we can do about that. Hate it, trash it, condemn it all you want, but get over it. SF4 paved a new road for future fighting games to follow much like SF2 launched the whole freakin genre.
The one thing I don't understand is the reception from some competitive players. I've heard some players say "this game is ass!" and I ask them "So why the hell are you playing a game you clearly don't like?" Their answer is "Because everybody else is playing it."
I HATE this attitude with a passion! I fell if your not having fun with the game at a casual level first, you should stop playing and try something else.
But if you just don't like the game then DON'T PLAY IT! However, do us all a favor and keep the shit-talking to yourselves. How can we expect to keep the Renaissance going if there's constant bickering between us over which game is better or if SF4 sucks? It's a slap in the face to the entire FG community.
Fighting games are my favorite genre and seeing them reach mainstream level would be awesome. Mainstream and underground can co-exist but it's up to the people to decide that, not the game and not the company. If the people want FGs to sink then dammit they'll sink to the bottom and never come back.
Phew. Sorry bout the two long posts. Had a lot to say but being net to college gave me a new view on life:)
P.S: I'm eager to read the next part of your EVO season wrap up.
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Momotaro, at 11:17 PM
good job with the constant lying in your articles about things you obviously have no knowledge in.
source for holdem being less skilled, for example?
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Anonymous, at 8:36 PM
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are you five?
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